It's not the hardware, stupid

[Palmer Deville]

You focus on software features

Uh huh. I tend to like hardware too. Having a solid effort on both ends are better than one or the other. Anybody hear an echo in here?

Not really ethical to cut my comment off.  I have no problem focusing on software/hardware combinations. But adding some hardware to make the iPod physically bounce to the beat (Hi sony) is as meaningless to me as adding a social feature which I wouldn't use (I turned off sigs here because the cards are obnoxious) and a subscription service I wouldn't pay for.

To both of ya:

Hypothetical. As far as I'm concerned as of Sept 16th (at least on paper), if we inexplicably took every iPod user, scrapped iTunes, and ported them all over to using the Zune software, also having access to a subscription service, you/we would all be better off as a whole. Again, software + service + great hardware = win.

Same as above. How would I be better? iTunes store has more music, more movies and more games. I hate the points system. The devices are aesthetically less desirable to me across the board. The Wifi is all but useless to me without web browsing and a method of signing onto hot spots (besides I usually don't listen to my iPod in a static location). The software misses many smart features I want and doesn't run on a Mac (I'm not emulating for one piece of software).

Even if I got to keep the iPods and iPhones as I think you're suggesting - Zune's software would bring less of what I want and more of what I don't.

I see no benefit for me in Zune's ecosystem... In fact I see less. Hence the fact that I still use iPod.

Perhaps you could you list some?

[gljvd]

You focus on software features

Uh huh. I tend to like hardware too. Having a solid effort on both ends are better than one or the other. Anybody hear an echo in here?

If the Zune had what consumers wanted then they would have more than 4% of the market.

It's actually 2.6.   Everything that is the majority doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. Otherwise Macs would be a lot further along wouldn't they?

To both of ya:

Hypothetical. As far as I'm concerned as of Sept 16th (at least on paper), if we inexplicably took every iPod user, scrapped iTunes, and ported them all over to using the Zune software, also having access to a subscription service, you/we would all be better off as a whole. Again, software + service + great hardware = win.

I'd have to say they'd be worse off . You can allways improve the software later , just ask the zune 30 launch day owners .  However once your stuck with hardware it wont change. The software for the zune 30 has continued to improve every 6 months or so since launch. But has the battery life of the zune 30 increased to zune 120 levels ? Has the zune 30 grown smaller to the size of the zune 120 ?

Once you buy the hardware your stuck with it till your ready t spend again. I don't know about u but i don't want to spend $250 on new hardware every year .

[glowbee]

I don't know about u but i don't want to spend $250 on new hardware every year .

As evidenced by the insane amount of iPod sales every year, I'd say you're definitely in the minority.    There are apparently millions of people who do just that.

[Zunerama Ed.]

I wrote the initial post in this thread because I think most people *do* think it's all about the hardware. What I'm suggesting is that hardware itself doesn't foster long-term loyalty in the same way that a software experience does.

With hardware, there's more "churn", and with each replacement unit a decision point gets introduced. If you're good (or lucky), your customer makes the decision to stick with you.

I think the Zune software approach has great potential to create an ecosystem with "stickiness".

And, it's an area that Apple doesn't believe in, or hasn't chosen to exploit. That makes it all the more reason for Microsoft to drive it. Kudos to them that their strategy is not - as you often hear on forums - to "just copy iPod". They have been much more bold and imaginative than that.

[Palmer Deville]

Palmer - You make some really compelling arguments, but I really can't swallow that you would find no other features more compellng that size, form factor or design when you buy electronics. No manufacturer would release a newly designed device that did the exact same thing as it's predecessor, or their would never be a reason to upgrade. I'm sure the replacement GPS you bought not only had a better design and resolution, but the software may have offered better features as well, like more realistic maps, turn by turn voice navigation, etc. I find it hard to believe that none of that played a part in persuading you to upgrade.

Every PC in the world Mac or Windows serves the same purpose and offer the same abilities. Yet there are so many hardware vendors and PC models. When people go to buy a PC, they don't buy the software - it's all the same it all provides the same access. They buy the design, the hardware features, the graphics cards, etc. 

Now with computers, as opposed to consumer electronics, you make an even better point (and a good argument against paying a premium for a Mac, since as you pointed out, all PC's pretty much do the same thing). But I think you're leaving something important out of the equation here. I don't think that people buy a computer based solely on design or hardware. They are also buying a brand and it's reputation. Anyway, when it comes to computers I do agree that to a large extent it's not the software, but I also think that if it didn't matter at all they'd be selling cheaper Linux boxes like crazy.

You drive home my point.

I bought the new GPS for voice-enabled-commands (I talk to it) and a larger, bright better looking screen. The improved road information was a bonus which I could have technically downloaded. But the better looking maps needed a higher resolution screen. That's like suggesting I buy an HD TV and not subscribe to HD content. I already had voice guidance (it talks to me), but had I not the hardware would have need a speaker added.

So in all cases, the improvements I bought for and the improvements you suggested required better hardware. Just like I suspect one day we'll have HD iPod touches and iPhones. So the software could do it now but it'd still be downsized to SD.

Just like when I bought my 3G iPhone it was for data transfer speed increase and GPS. The fact that my phone now geo-tags my photos is a bonus (which I actually keep turned off). Outside of that I'd still have a first generation iPhone.


As for the computers, as you said "you do agree that to a large extent it's not the software." It's brand recognition and reputation. But if it wasn't design, companies wouldn't have snap on case lid colors and unique design. We'd all have beige boxes.

[glowbee]

And, it's an area that Apple doesn't believe in, or hasn't chosen to exploit.

Which is unfortunate, because it definitely wasn't the hardware alone that sold the iPod in it's early days. It was the formula, the software that made syncing and music management easy coupled with nice hardware that really drove people to purchase it over other music players. To use a term that others have stated frequently, it was "the experience".

[ACE]

Hi Harvey, 

I agree with you to a point that software needs to draw people in and lend to the experience, but what's getting the people there initially?  You can't expect people to go somewhere without giving them a map, and that's where the hardware DOES play a vital role.  I submit my respectful rebuttle HERE.  Not trying to spam here, and if a mod prefers, I can post my entire article here

[Jander]

Not really ethical to cut my comment off.

Nothing devious there. Was just trying to get to gist of what you seemed to take from my comment, which really wasn't my point at all, which was why I quoted just that. Capeesh?

How would I be better? iTunes store has more music, more movies and more games. I hate the points system. The devices are aesthetically less desirable to me across the board. The Wifi is all but useless to me without web browsing and a method of signing onto hot spots (besides I usually don't listen to my iPod in a static location). The software misses many smart features I want and doesn't run on a Mac (I'm not emulating for one piece of software).

Like I said, hypothetical. Points system, you got me there. That's honestly cumbersome to use. Most people don't like it. The need to convert amount link under every point amount so users could easily see how much something costs. I see why they do it as a company, but it doesn't translate very well to consumers. The other other thing you got me on is content amount. iTunes wins there. Smart playlist options? Which ones are available in iTunes that aren't in the Zune software?  Other than that, the Zune software's method of doing things is fundamentally better designed. The column view is more effective as a browse method, allowing you to get right to your content more easily, from your latest additions, to artists, to songs, all filtered how you want. It's drag and drop editing method is genius and effective. And now with new things like mixview, a better now playing visualizer that actually has more use than being eye candy, and Channels/Picks for you content based on play data, ratings,  all provide a better experience in the interactive department than iTunes. Then there's the Zune Pass as a service. Might not be good for you specifically, but it's better for all those iPod users as a whole, providing a host of ways to take in music as a whole.

I honestly think, hopefully as objective as I can be, that given a few more tweaks and upping the content, it'd be a better software to use across the board.

[Zunerama Ed.]

That's okay, ACE. Thanks for the link to your rebuttal.

No doubt, the conventional wisdom is that hardware rules. And I am not immune to hardware lust by any means.

Hardware wins in the short run. Software wins in the long run.

[gljvd]

I don't know about u but i don't want to spend $250 on new hardware every year .

As evidenced by the insane amount of iPod sales every year, I'd say you're definitely in the minority.    There are apparently millions of people who do just that.

  I disagree .  Apple doesn't have that huge of a market share and every year there are new kids turning 14 or whatever getting an ipod for the first time  and there are people who have an ipod for 3 , 4 , 5 even 7 years that now feel its time to upgrade. Hell in march my zune will turn 2 years old.

[Palmer Deville]

I think the Zune software approach has great potential to create an ecosystem with "stickiness".

I think ecosystems lack stickiness today - unless that ecosystem is hardware based in which case Apple (phone, DAP, PC, TV system) is slightly above MS's ecosystem where the current ecosystem connections are very minimal. (We can technically take out Apple TV and MediaCenter DVR -> Zune based on overall odoption rates.) Either way, Apple's already connected every major consumer entertainment product shy of a game console.

As I mentioned with social features, which is a key component of Zune. People switch all the time. Apple could easily create a piece of software that scans the Zune library on your computer and brings all your subscriptions over to iTunes should they implement a subscription service - which I believe they eventually will. It's been done before. But I don't think Apple would bother.

They've already started collecting every users library information including ratings, playlists, etc (opt in and anonymous). I now think the genius feature is awesome. See, I had downloaded iTunes 8 immediately. And activated Genius immediately and have been fairly unimpressed with it. Well today I updated my wife's iTunes and her Genius was... well, pretty darn genius.

I was a little upset at my prior results so I looked around iTunes and found how to manually update the genius. It uploaded the changes in my library since last sync to compute against the most current iTunes data (which it usually does automatically once a week). Now it has all the data of everyone who's uploaded their data in the last three days vs the few who had uploaded within the first hour. It's significantly better and as promised I've 4 and 5-starred many songs I hadn't before. The point here is that Apple has taken, in my opinion, the cumbersome part of the social away - browsing for new songs (I know they have channels now).  And they've done it in ways where Zune is limited: 1) they have a huge (the largest by far) source of user music information. 2) they know how each of those people feel about their songs based on 5-star ratings and 3) they know what music each person has previously grouped together into playlists. My wife added over 50 songs to her running list today based on the Genius, that she'd never thought of. It truly is amazing.

With that structure in place, a subscription would complete the loop for music discovery. But I still wouldn't pay for subscription, though I'd gladly take the opportunity to sample to full length tracks.

The main thing I find a problem with in your theory is timing. Apple has 65 million accounts worldwide. Should they introduce subscriptions before Zune gets off the ground - several more years at the current rate - then if your theory is correct, Apple has the stickiness advantage.

Still, I don't think the theory holds, because it's so easy to move around in the digital world. When my wife left friendster for myspace, I packed up and moved. When she left myspace for facebook, I packed up and moved.

Tell me a service that you feel can't be replaced should something better come along.

[Palmer Deville]

And, it's an area that Apple doesn't believe in, or hasn't chosen to exploit.

Which is unfortunate, because it definitely wasn't the hardware alone that sold the iPod in it's early days. It was the formula, the software that made syncing and music management easy coupled with nice hardware that really drove people to purchase it over other music players. To use a term that others have stated frequently, it was "the experience".

They still throw around the term experience. They just don't believe attaching a social environment or a subscription service adds to the experience.

I agree as do many others. You disagree as do many others...  Nothing has changed about Apple's fundamentals.

[Jander]

Hi Harvey, 

I agree with you to a point that software needs to draw people in and lend to the experience, but what's getting the people there initially?  You can't expect people to go somewhere without giving them a map, and that's where the hardware DOES play a vital role.  I submit my respectful rebuttle HERE.  Not trying to spam here, and if a mod prefers, I can post my entire article here

Nice article ACE. I'm with ya in the idea that the hardware is the hook. It'll catch consumers and has. Software is the meal at home, whether its good or not will get someone to go fishing again and again. That's why both ends are important.  Treating customers as a platform is also very important, instead of releasing new islands of incompatible hardware every year, the Zune team has bring everybody up to speed across the board. In that regard, the Zune team nailed hardware design from the outset. At the very least, was smart in designing every device with wifi.  But you're right, the Zune brand still needs the shock and awe device if they want to really grow.

[thenumberdevil]

... Apple doesn't have that huge of a market share ...

Are you kidding me? 70% marketshare between Jan and June 2008 ... You must be doing some really odd math ...

[gljvd]

... Apple doesn't have that huge of a market share ...

Are you kidding me? 70% marketshare between Jan and June 2008 ... You must be doing some really odd math ...

Read what I responded to and then  re read what you wrote.